Lenna Turner – DEI: A Personal Perspective Through A Retrospective Lens

Connect with Lenna:

• 

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com 

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Resources:

• Salary.com
• HR Data Labs Season 3 Episode 10
• HR Data Labs Season 3 Episode 8

• “I’ve seen in my career a lot of really great people from marginalized communities, people of color, get recruited into the workplace. And then they get there, there’s no real plan to move them through the organization.”
• “You have to be intentional. First of all, you have to be intentional to have a strategy and be intentional about building goals that help you meet that strategy.”

Announcer: 0:02

Here’s an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what’s happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here’s your host, David Turetsky.

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I’m your host, David Turetsky. Like always, we try and find the most fascinating, interesting people to talk to you about the world of HR data, analytics and technologies. Today, I think we have a really special podcast for you. As always, I’d like to welcome my friend Dwight Brown.

Dwight Brown: 1:05

Hey, David, how you doing?

David Turetsky: 1:07

Very good. How are you?

Dwight Brown: 1:08

Good.

David Turetsky: 1:09

I’d love to introduce my friend and colleague from Salary.com, Lenna Turner. Hello, Lenna. How are you today?

Lenna Turner: 1:17

Hi, David. Hi, Dwight. So nice to be with you guys today.

David Turetsky: 1:21

Wonderful to have you.

Dwight Brown: 1:22

Great having you here.

David Turetsky: 1:23

So we’re gonna have a very special podcast. But first, Lenna, why don’t you take us through a little bit of your background and how you got to Salary.com and what your position is at Salary.com.

Lenna Turner: 1:34

Okay, my name is Lenna Turner, I am Director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, as well as a comp consultant in the consulting practice of Salary.com. My background has been primarily in HR compensation for the last 20 plus years. So I have a lot of experience in big box companies. And then later in my career, some smaller companies, but basically handling a large projects for compensation, division compensation, and being a consultant and a manager, group manager, various industries: food and beverage banking, manufacturing. And then I decided to take a little bit of a break and start my own company. But it was a boutique, not a compensation consulting firm, but it was a boutique. So then I decided to come back into the workforce and I wanted to do something different. And I met some people who knew some people at Salary.com We had some conversations, and I ended up here and loving it so far. It’s very interesting. Lots of different clients.

David Turetsky: 2:39

And we love working with you.

Lenna Turner: 2:41

Thank you.

David Turetsky: 2:42

But one fun thing that only Lenna knows, but now the world will is.

Lenna Turner: 2:50

Well, I hesitate to say this, but I sing with the Atlanta Opera Chorus. Because people will then say you’re an opera singer, like Well, here’s the story, I think with the fabulous chorus because there’s some major if you follow opera at all, most people don’t who don’t love it. But so you got San Francisco Opera, you got Dallas, Houston, grand opera, got Chicago lyric, you got Atlanta opera, those are your big powerhouses of great opera companies and choruses. So I tell people I sing and I happen to sing with a fabulous chorus. I just happened upon it. And most of the things in my life I just happened upon because I’m interested in improving myself in some way. So then when I was getting a divorce, I figured I want to sing more because I know how to sing a little bit. So I found a voice coach, you know how I found her. I picked up the phone, call the Atlanta opera and said, I’m looking for a voice coach, do you have some recommendations, so I visited a couple of studios. And then I found a voice teacher who I really loved. And somehow she sang at a church with a guy who just happened to be the chorus master for associate conductor of Atlanta opera. I met him. I wanted to sing different kinds of music, more classical and technical stuff. So I went to sing at her church in choir. And that’s how I met the chorus director. So in one thing led to another. I coached with him a little bit and then back then you you always had to get invited. Even if you sang an audition, you had to be invited for this chorus or for this production. And so the first time I was invited to sing with him was during Easter weekend, it was for a performance of Mozart’s Requiem. I thought I was going to literally pass out I was so nervous, but it was so beautiful. I had to fight through it. Kinda like that, whatever I want. If I want it so much, no matter how much it scares me, I have to fight through it. So then at the end of the performance, I was so in love with everything and everyone. And then from there, I was invited to perform different operas and you know, somehow it took me to Europe as a part of the Porgy and Bess cast that performed in Europe for about I think we were there for about eight weeks in one place and then two weeks in another place, but it was fantastic. Probably the best experience of my life as far as

David Turetsky: 5:00

You get to live your dream. That’s wonderful.

Lenna Turner: 5:01

Yeah, that was a good dream.

David Turetsky: 5:03

That’s awesome. Well, I could tell you that I sang the Toys R Us theme on one of the last podcasts we had done. But I’m sure it won’t go down as well as your singing. So maybe during the podcast, we might be able to get you to sing something otherwise.

Lenna Turner: 5:19

Well, I don’t think so.

David Turetsky: 5:21

Is there any YouTube videos that we can share with the audience?

Lenna Turner: 5:25

No, you know, with opera companies, they don’t do that. Because you have to pay to come see everything. So but now with with the Coronavirus, and things are changing a little bit. They are doing some things that are updated and they are sharing a lot of things via video, but I’m not in any of those things.

David Turetsky: 5:43

All right, well, sounds like a fascinating journey. And it’s wonderful. You get to live your dream.

Lenna Turner: 5:48

Yeah, that’s pretty cool.

David Turetsky: 5:50

So let’s get on to our topic for today, because it’s a topic we care very deeply about on the HR Data Labs podcast, which is diversity, equity, and inclusion. And the topic of this particular episode is going to be about your personal journey, your personal perspective, the lens and how it has impacted your career and how it can impact people’s career and their success. So Lenna, let’s get to our first question, what actually led you to be the diversity officer at Salary.com for DEI and how did you become interested in it as a topic?

Lenna Turner: 6:36

Well, I think I’ve always been interested in it, not knowing that it was going to become this whole phenomena that it is today. So early in my career, I sort of always had a vision of what I wanted to do and how I wanted to move and be in the work world, right. So I was part of that group that graduated from college and said, Oh, yeah, I want to wear the navy blue suit, the burgundy pumps, and I want an office. So then you have that in your head. And you know, you get your first job. And my first job didn’t go the way I planned. It wasn’t what I wanted, it was a really low level job. I have a degree. So anyway, I just figured out a way to sort of start moving through the work world and then observing the barriers or the challenges that you might have as a person of color or as a woman or as a young woman. And then I just sort of observe those things. So I think throughout my career, I was really observant, but I’ve always been a person who loved diversity. When I applied to college, I applied to University of San Bernardino, Los Angeles City College and some other colleges on the West Coast. And then some big colleges because I wanted a melting pot, my high school was pretty much predominantly African American. And I knew going into my next phase, I wanted a whole bunch of different things. And I am still that way, to a large extent I like different differences. And part of the some of the barriers for diversity, equity inclusion, or that sameness, how people do that. So what led me here is that I just took some classes when I was in between the work assignments, and then part of one of the classes to get your Sherm certification, a module was DEI and I became really, really interested. Then I came back to Salary.com. And I was on a call with my boss one day, and he was talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, I said, Well, I’d like to work on it, Al. I don’t mind helping. And I just started helping, I just started absorbing everything I could about it and just bringing him information. I put together a webinar with some really cool people in the industry, some practitioners that are really doing some great things right now, Christina Sharif, from Reddit, and then a young whippersnapper out of Atlanta from Warner media. And then there was another panelist, but they were really great in terms of what they’re doing right now. So I put it together. And we had about, we had about 600 people log on to it, and listen to that. And I just became really, really interested. And I just started feeding it to my boss. And then one thing led to another and we got together one day and said you want to do this, I’m like, Sure. And that’s how I started. Sort of organic, I think.

David Turetsky: 9:17

Yeah, but it’s also it’s a fascinating journey. Because all too often we get introduced to things in life, and we don’t recognize the significance it could have on our, on our life on our career or on our profession. I grew up in a very, very integrated, mixed, wonderful melting pot in suburban New York State, where I had friends of every specific type. I mean, it was almost like United Nations. And it was beautiful because we didn’t give a crap about the differences in each other. I mean, yeah, okay, it was high school. We all did, because that’s what you did in high school, but we relished it. And, and, and we all succeeded in it. I think we all learned something really cool about not just ourselves, but others. Then I went to Penn State, which was not integrated at all. It was it was kind of the it was a culture shock, because I looked around and I said, where is everybody else? And they said, there isn’t anybody else. It’s just this. And I felt really lonely. I felt really felt like a fish out of water

Lenna Turner: 10:20

It is exactly the opposite, sort of, of mine, Right? Yeah.

David Turetsky: 10:26

But but the beautiful part about it Lenna is we all came back to celebrating differences by being able to be put into positions where we could help uncover, whether it’s unconscious or conscious bias by being able to take how we grew up, and how we learned how we got educated, and then be able to look around and go, Hmm, there’s something interesting and fascinating about this. Let’s talk about it with other people. And by having those conversations, you then start to uncover what either was conscious or unconscious, and to help people see the differences or celebrate some of those differences, right? And I think that’s what’s beautiful about DEI today, it’s not just about the reporting the numbers, which it used to be about, it’s about celebrating those differences.

Lenna Turner: 11:22

Exactly. And a lot of people are not quite sure what to do, once they get past the numbers piece. They have the numbers and the diversity there. But then what do you do with those people when you get them there? That’s part of the inclusion piece that you’ve got to figure out because I’ve seen in my career, a lot of really great people get recruited, marginalized community, people of color, get recruited into the workplace. And then when they get there, there’s no real plan to move them through the organization. So they don’t feel included. They don’t get to go to the meeting. They don’t get to go to the golf outing. I wouldn’t. I’ve been in compensation a while. So I’ve put together great compensation packages for these great hires that people bring into the organization. And when they get there, yeah, a week goes by a month, six months, and then into the year, and then they’re gone. Great package paid them exactly. But there’s no inclusion. And one particular place was just lots of men, and they had a great woman, but she didn’t really get included in things. So she left after a year. So we’re back to square one. With that goal,

Dwight Brown: 12:38

It’s that alienation that people feel when they get in there. It’s not just about getting them in, it’s really, how do you how does a person feel included, and

Lenna Turner: 12:50

right. And by that Now, the thing is, making sure that people that you have diverse backgrounds feel included by creating those safe spaces where people absolutely come to work feeling like they can be themselves and they are contributing, and those differences that they bring to the table are celebrated and communicated.

David Turetsky: 13:11

We actually had a guest on, Adriana DiNenno, from Infor and we were talking about the business awareness groups, or the what are they called BSGs be BRGs. Employee Resource Groups. Right, right. And, and I think that’s one way of helping celebrate the differences in employee groups. And it’s not just about the identification or the self identification, it’s about having them and giving people the opportunity to join them or not. And to be able to feel comfortable, that there are other people who either have their back, or are in the same situation they’re in so they can talk about things and feel like that’s a safe space to enjoy that grouping. They can feel like they have partners in their success and feel appreciated in that way.

Lenna Turner: 14:01

And championing the same causes or conversations that they want to. An example is a women’s resource group. So that I had the pleasure of being a part of that. And I think that’s where we make a lot of really great strides with women. But that’s not where we have to stop. But a women’s resource group, it gets to the heart of professional development for women, understanding how women move through the workplace, understanding the needs of women in the workplace, mother’s and the needs of, of you as a person who comes to work every day. And you have to bring your whole self to work, which means you have to bring that other part of you as a mother or as a wife, and how does that work? So a resource groups get gives you a chance to sort of talk through those kinds of issues and how things in the workplace may be made better to sort of recognize those differences and that because you have valuable women that work for you and you want to keep them. So you put together a resource group that talks about professional development, women’s work needs in the workplace. And you bring in speakers you bring in people to help them navigate, promotional sort of issues or understanding how you get promoted what you do, how you have conversations around promotion, and everything. So resource groups are a big deal. And that’s just one example of a resource group.

Announcer: 15:24

Like what you hear so far, make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com. Now, back to the show.

David Turetsky: 15:37

And that brings us to our second question. And BRGs are kind of one answer to this question. So I’d love to transition to this, which is, what are other ways that we can impact an employee’s career growth and development and feel like they’re included? You know, is there a good awareness strategy? Or are there specific strategies you’ve seen work? Or if there’s no strategy, how do people feel support? How do they feel like they’re included?

Lenna Turner: 16:06

If there is, these are the things that get impacted from a career perspective that impacted mine, and that I think it will impact in if you a don’t have a strategy around recruitment, professional development, pay equity, all those things get impacted when you have a strategy. If you don’t, if you don’t have a strategy, then obviously, there’s a negative impact. If you have a strategy, recruitment, let’s just take it for example. Or you can look at all of your HR programs, that’s a concrete thing any person could do at any company. If you’re interested in putting forth a diversity, equity inclusion strategy, a first look is just take a look at all of your HR programs. So recruitment is a major one attraction and recruitment sort of go together. Attraction, look at how you seem to the world the first impression. Now everybody, the moment they’re interested in a position, they’re going to go to your website and look at what it looks like. And that first impression says, Oh, I don’t see anybody that looks like me on this website, I’m gonna move on. But they are more likely to move you down the list because they, this is your first presentation. So that’s attraction recruitment. If you have job advertisements that read a certain way, because we all know job advertisements, job descriptions, they have bias written into the way that they are presented. So you might want to take a look at those things. That’s just to get the interview set up. So okay, then we have an interview. So what’s your interview panel look like? There should be some bias training and some just training for your interview panel to to look for things like sameness interview, and this training should be for your recruiters and your hiring managers, so that they understand how to ask the questions, how to recognize their own biases, and you might put together bias training for those people so that you can deconstruct that bias. But that is a huge barrier to the whole diversity equity inclusion equation.

David Turetsky: 18:09

I’d actually take a step back, though, and I’d say that even before you start talking about the funnel, but top of funnel especially, it’s where are we looking, you know, are you looking at the same places you’ve always looked? It’s not really going to change your equation much. You just keep advertising either in the same newspaper or you look at me advertising the same newspaper. How 1950s of me!

Dwight Brown: 18:33

Oh, boy, you just completely dated yourself!

Lenna Turner: 18:36

You meant the digital newspaper. Right. Exactly. Right.

David Turetsky: 18:41

Hey, listen, Lenna. I could have said Monster. I could say Monster but I just heard them advertised on the radio yesterday. So Monsters back.

Lenna Turner: 18:49

Oh, my God!

David Turetsky: 18:50

Yeah, monsters back.

Lenna Turner: 18:51

But you’re so totally right. It’s the the pipeline, the recruiter pipeline, before we even get to the the, the the interview, it’s if you’re not diversifying that pipeline, then you’re going to get the same kinds of candidates that you always get. And it’s that sameness that I referred to earlier when I was talking. And that’s part of our bias, is people connect with people who look like them, who speak like them, who went to the same school that they went to, if you always recruit there, you always get that same and then so it fills in, so filters down to the workforce that you don’t have a diversity of thought, not really you have smart people granted, you know, they’re smart. But if you’re looking for that smart group, that diversity of thought and brings different just elements to your work processes, then you won’t get it if you recruit in the same place. So you have to be intentional about all of that.

Dwight Brown: 19:44

And it’s hard getting out of getting out of your comfort zone. I mean, we’ve been lulled into this, this sense that what we’re doing is the right thing and and you know, half the time around the table, people are scratching their head saying why don’t we have more diversity? Well, you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results!

Lenna Turner: 20:06

And I’ll say this a lot. If we talk longer, I’d say it over and over. It’s an intentionality, you have to be intentional. First of all, you have to be intentional to have a strategy, and be intentional about building goals that help you meet that strategy. So I had the pleasure of working for Coca Cola. And I have to tell you, they do it automatically, you step in there. And it’s international rights. It’s extremely diverse. But they do some really great things around being intentional about diversity goals. And it’s permeated all down the organization from the EVP to their direct reports, it goes through your recruitment process, how you check in with recruiters on those diversity goals, how you look at succession planning, all of that. And that impacts your career, all of that if you don’t have that in place, and nobody’s paying attention to that. You as an employee, you might get sort of left along the way.

David Turetsky: 21:06

But Coca Cola is struggling from two different problems. And I’ll use it, I’ll use that terminology very carefully. First of all, they’re in Atlanta. And so they have literally no excuse for not hiring the best and the brightest, that are coming from the plethora of amazing sources of talent that they have at their disposal. And I mean, they have a, they have a huge college right next door, that, you know, can can filter in a ton of wonderful recruits. But they also have a plethora of phenomenal other universities, especially the historically black universities that are around their campus that they have access to. And it’s an embarrassment of riches, I’d love to say it for a lot of the people that are on our pot who are listening to our podcast, they probably don’t live in towns like that they probably live in other areas, and might struggle to actually find, because they’re looking at the common sources that they have always looked at. I wonder if there are other ways that they might be able to find good candidates, more diverse sets of candidates, no matter where they are around the world, but but mostly around the US.

Lenna Turner: 22:20

Well, no matter where you are all of HBCUs don’t sit in Atlanta, they’re in Florida state. So you can it’s, I could pick up the phone and start a partnership with any of them. The National Black MBA Association has a huge conference. And my company, several companies, it’s seen as a professional development event, because it’s a huge place for recruiting talent. So many companies, all kinds of companies will have a booth there, because they know the talent is there, that’s in any city, anytime. You don’t have to live here, you have to be intentional about it. So you have to go look for places like the National Association of Asian American women in programming, they have conferences, they have a website, you can intentionally seek out contact and start to build partnerships there. Internships, you can do the same thing to start just reaching out, not at the same university, or the same high schools, or there’s high schools in your area, you probably would be able to look and build a partnership with those counselors there to say, I’m looking at kids who are interested in STEM careers, we have a partnership with that group. And then you start to build from there. And I did a presentation with Heather, the lady who does some other DEI work for Salary.com. And part of what we said in one of our things was recognize where you are and start there. So you don’t have to live here. You don’t have to have all of the schools around you, but you have a phone, you can find them, but you have to be intentional and build some strategic thought around it, and then implement from there.

David Turetsky: 24:05

And by the way, it does not cost a lot of money. In fact, in some ways, it costs nothing to make those phone calls to ask about the internships or to talk about the opportunities or to ask if they have STEM programs. And to encourage those whether it’s high schools or colleges or universities to start having candidates flow through to you. It costs very little

Lenna Turner: 24:29

Right, and just build the partnerships build relationships, you have senior leaders or senior managers on your team who might make some appearance appearances in the community at those particular schools or organizations where you might have teenagers or young adults who might be likely candidates who maybe they thought about a career in this or maybe they haven’t. technology is a huge thing. Now careers that are growing. So encourage your leadership to be more visible In the community, get on a board for an organization like Boys and Girls Club of America, where you can talk about what your company does build a bridge for those kids or people that have interest in what you might do. So that you can say, I know where we can find that kind of talent, I know how we can help grow that kind of talent, and you won’t fall prey to saying, Well, I don’t know where to look, I think that’s no longer acceptable in all the DEI practitioners that I talked to, that’s kind of not acceptable, that you don’t know where to find the talent, you just got to be intentional about, you know, doing so.

Dwight Brown: 25:37

you know, that generates a question in my head, that I’m interested in your perspective on, as we move toward this trend toward remote work with COVID? Do you think that that will broaden our abilities to be able to have more diversity? We’re no longer recruiting to a central market, a central physical market, per se? And that may, could that possibly help our efforts?

Lenna Turner: 26:06

I think it can. Because I look at myself, just this year, past year, I had an intern who was up in the Boston area somewhere. And I’m here in Atlanta, and it worked just fine. But now you don’t have to worry about that relocation, or not being in the area to actually be physically in that location. Because even if you sit there, you’re not going into an office for that company anyway. So it opens up, I think, a whole area of four different talent pool that you can recruit from. And the thing that you just have to work on is onboarding people that are remotely but that’s a bigger conversation about onboarding in a remote workforce. But I think so. I think so, Dwight.

David Turetsky: 26:53

And I think that’s, that’s a problem of communication that most managers have to overcome. Now, in the Zoom era, whereas, you know, before it was, let’s go out to lunch, or let’s, you know, let’s talk over coffee, or let’s go, you know, sit in the conference room and have a conversation, right? In some ways, that’s easier. In some ways. It’s much harder to connect with people, especially people who have that need that visceral need to be with someone. But they’re having to change and reskill. So The question that I wanted to ask you next, Lenna was, what are some other examples of diversity, equity and inclusion actions that companies can take to impact issues of engagement and retention and recruitment? what can companies do beyond the ones that you’ve already spoke of? What are things that you might suggest that when someone stops listening to this podcast today, that they can go out and take some action on right away.

Lenna Turner: 28:00

So one thing is for, and I might sound like a broken record, but it just works from what I’ve learned, and what in these different cohorts that I’m a part of, if leadership really is very transparent about it, communicate about it. If you have a strategy communicated communicate it often, your employees want to know your line managers need to know it, because that’s where the rubber meets the road with a lot the hiring managers. So have a strategy. leadership needs to be bought into it wholly. And I can say that at Salary.com, our leadership is really bought into the whole notion of diversity, equity and inclusion. That’s one thing, HR professionals can help drive, get the leadership bought in and then communicate, be transparent, transparent about it. Let your website show that you’re you have a stake in the ground. That’s one thing. Another thing is celebrate the diversity that you have, as you try and grow your strategy. If you have leaders that are diverse, when there’s appropriate timing, have them on for town hall, let them speak, let them talk about their areas. Let people see that we celebrate them. They’re just as smart, not special treatment, just celebrating the diverse thought and the leadership that we have. That’s one thing you can do. Another thing is lunch and learns help people learn about the leaders, personal stories are always good. And I had the benefit of being a part of a guy who was a leader in Information Technology Group for a company I worked for. He used to hold these lunches, he would pick up the tab for lunch, and everybody was dying to go and he would just talk about career stuff. So it helps you see his perspective, his point of view, but it also helped you understand things you really needed to do as a young professional and how you might go about networking as an art he talked about talked about that. So those are some things that you can do. And the other thing is sort of Look at your programs. I said it before, but I have to say it again. Succession planning is key. You want to have more women in leadership? Well, how are you planning to do that? When you look at succession planning, and where are women in the pipeline there? And how are you preparing them? So you can’t just look at it and say, I’ve got, oh, I’ve got Sally in here. And then I’ve got Bob, if Sally, you know, you want you’re intentional about moving women up the pipeline for succession, how you prepare them. So you should have a three to five year plan for that person and a five to seven year plan. So they move in to that.

David Turetsky: 30:35

And I think your you mentioned the word intentionality. Give that person an understanding, you know, and I love it, it’s a great word, give that person an understanding about the stretch assignments, they need to complete, the things they need to do the training, they need to take the mentoring they need to do to be seen as a leader, and to be thought of as the leader. So that when it happens, people aren’t like, wow, Sally got promoted to that job. It’s a holy crap, how could Sally not have gotten that?

Lenna Turner: 31:03

Right, Absolutely. And that’s why you have that three to five year plan, it’s a one to three year plan, three to five year plan, and then they should be ready to move in that position, as people naturally leave the organization. And that’s what I’ve seen that really works well. Succession planning is key for senior leadership.

David Turetsky: 31:19

And we’ve seen examples of this played out in the media, like our friends over at Microsoft in Redmond, Washington, where, you know, they for quite a while were very open when Steve Ballmer left and didn’t have a leader, didn’t have a highlighted leader as being the person yet. And so that has played out in many circumstances around around the United States, but around the world of making sure that you have someone who’s next in line, that they’re respected, that they’ve been grown, that they have all the skills necessary. And they represent what you as an organization, want other people to think of you as. So you know, getting back to the intentionality of who is it that you want leading your company? And do they represent your values, and do people understand that.

Lenna Turner: 32:07

And diversity, equity inclusion is not about special treatment. It’s about diverse, equitable and inclusive treatment, people had thoughts about affirmative action way back that you’re just making numbers. And this is not that, I think, one final thing, which is a big thing that we try and help people with at Salary.com is Pay Equity, not just checking the numbers, the boxes anymore. Now, you’re looking at pay equity through a diversity, equity and inclusion lens to make certain that you have some good decision data to build, make good decisions around when it comes to pay, because people will leave you for pay when it’s not right. And they will leave you for pay when it’s right. And the other things are not right. So it’s not, you know,

David Turetsky: 32:50

Oh, yeah. Well, the straw that breaks the camel’s back isn’t usually pay because while pay happens every Friday or every other Friday or every month, it’s it’s not that it’s the I don’t feel like they value me or my boss doesn’t listen to me, or why am I never put up for promotion, or all those other things you’re talking about. But if you are given that three to five year plan, or that 1 to 3 year plan, or if you are given opportunities, and you’re given the ability to show your stuff, whether you succeed or fail, that’s up to you, but at least you were given those opportunities. Right,

Lenna Turner: 33:25

exactly. And that’s the equitable part of it all. But you always want to get pay right. So

David Turetsky: 33:33

Wow, she got that tagline in there.

Lenna Turner: 33:35

I like to say, if you take pay off the table, then you can work on those other things. Because I’ve been in compensation a while. And every time we go to a meeting, I like to say, well, let’s just take take pay off the table. And when we do, get it, get the pay right, You’ve got a plethora of other issues, and people turnover is still the same. So you got to work on those things as well. But my last parting words, first, diversity and inclusion has to be very intentional, the strategy to support the review of your programs, and then understanding that today, it’s really moving toward that inclusive component of the equation that you’ve really got to work on. And it’s hard work. All of the practitioners that I talked to say, Yep, it’s hard work, but we’ll keep at it. And I love it. I just love it. I get really excited about it. I haven’t told Chris this but I can do this all day, but I won’t do it for free.

David Turetsky: 34:24

No, do not tell him you could do it for free. And Chris, if you’re listening, she definitely definitely deserves an increase. Well, Lenna, thank you very much. It’s been such a pleasure talking to you today about your personal journey, as well as the things that you suggest that companies do to get diversity, equity and inclusion on the right path for their organizations and you gave us some phenomenal examples. And I love and I will say it again too. intentionality. I think it’s a very key part of this, having people understand from your leadership all the way throughout the organization, understand what’s the intention of the organization, and how do they live the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion values that are trying to portray.

Lenna Turner: 35:17

Very well said, I agree. Thank you,

David Turetsky: 35:21

Dwight. Thank you very much.

Dwight Brown: 35:22

Thanks, David, thank you so much for being with us. Lenna, this has been a fascinating podcast.

Lenna Turner: 35:27

Thanks.

David Turetsky: 35:28

Yes. Thank you, Lenna. We’ll have to have you back on for another topic.

Lenna Turner: 35:31

All right. Looking forward to it.

David Turetsky: 35:33

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