Anna Tavis, Ph.D – How AI Will Transform Digital Coaching

Connect with Anna:

• 

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Compensation Consulting
• Humans at Work: The Art and Practice of Creating the Hybrid Workplace
• HR Data Labs Season 6 Episode 15
• HR Data Labs Season 6 Episode 13

• “Digital coaching can be spread much more broadly throughout an organization [compared to traditional coaching].”
• “The biggest unknown in the next phase [of digital coaching] is how humans are going to react, respond, and adapt.”

David Turetsky: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky. Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky alongside my friend, colleague, and co host, Dwight Brown from Salary.com. Dwight, how are you?

Dwight Brown: 0:56

I'm good. How you doing, David?

David Turetsky: 0:58

I'm good. I'm very good. Because today we have with us, Anna Tavis, who is the department chair for human capital management at this really small school in New York City called NYU. Hello, Anna, how are you?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 1:11

I'm doing great! Thank you, Dwight and David.

David Turetsky: 1:16

My pleasure. By the way, I love NYU. I had gone there right after I graduated college, and I thought it was one of the best experiences I had at school. So very excited to talk to Anna. But first, Anna wanted to give us a little bit of background on you and what you do at NYU.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 1:31

So I am really fortunate to be at NYU. I love the school, David, we're very innovative. And when I joined after career in the corporate world, about 15 years in senior HR roles, like the head of global talent for AIG, and I spent about eight years in Europe working for big fortune 50 companies, multinationally. So I when I got back to New York, NYU was a welcoming home for some for returning academic, and what was so exciting to me is that the ability to emerge, to marry my work experience with the professional education. And I think what we're doing here is really reinventing what higher ed should be for professionals, such as our HR colleagues, who come to us with some level of experience of three to five years and some even at the end of their career. Because we have programs in human capital management but, our recent orientation has been on analytics technology, AI, because we think HR professionals are all need to be skilled in those disciplines. And we also have a program in executive coaching and organizational consulting, a Master's of Science degree, which is actually unique in the US. We were just accredited by International Coach Federation, the only program in North America that has been accredited by ICF. And what we found that all HR disciplines really translate so well into that kind of lens of analytics technology now AI, we look at the future of the profession, and that's where we want to play a leading role.

David Turetsky: 3:30

That's wonderful. Well, we're gonna get into that in a lot more detail. But first, Anna, as we do every episode of the HR Data Labs podcast, what's one fun thing that no one knows about Anna Tavis?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 3:43

Oh, yeah. There are a couple of things. Some people know it. First of all, I have been really dedicated yoga practitioner for 25 years, and even more and travel to India every year, and really kind of followed that path of meditation and mindfulness, etc. And I always tend to go to the mecca of where things really originate from, and that's, that goes on my trips to India. And then the second thing is, about 15 years ago, I picked up Argentine Tango. And in six months after being, doing that, I went to Argentina, and realize that very few people spoke English there. So I picked up Spanish. It's really interesting how one passion leads to many others. But this is the way I balanced my life. You know, on the one hand, it is research and teaching and professional activities, but on the other there's this outlet of mindfulness, meditation and dancing.

David Turetsky: 4:51

It's a wonderful balance.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 4:53

Thank you.

David Turetsky: 4:55

So we can definitely count on this being not only an exciting podcast but also a very calm podcast as well.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 5:02

Yeah, we can definitely do a mindfulness exercise at the end, to make sure everything sinks in.

Dwight Brown: 5:09

David and I should probably practice a little more of that.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 5:13

We all do, we all do. I think that's prescribed by our right now that's the situation we're trying to figure out for ourselves. Right? We need to have more mindfulness.

Dwight Brown: 5:23

Absolutely.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 5:23

Definitely.

David Turetsky: 5:24

So let's get into our topic for today. It's a fascinating one. And it's one that I think a lot of us are very interested in, given a lot of the headlines about artificial intelligence. Today's topic is digital coaching, and the transformation of what coaching has become. So the first question, Anna, is give us a little bit about the background of coaching or the history of coaching.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 5:55

The history of coaching, you know, I in our upcoming book, which we're going to publish in the spring of 2024, we write about the roots of coaching really go back to Greece and, and Rome, as we all know Socratic dialogue is really like foundational sort of technique of question and answer where you're not really definitive a directive about eliciting, you know, ideas and solutions, but rather, leading a conversation and leading your interlocutors, you know, to the point where they make their own decisions in the end. So I think looking at that, and how it evolved. Then the word coaching itself, it really is, is absolutely fascinating, and goes back to England. And a coach was a person who accompanied students in these elite institutions like Oxford and Cambridge, across campus in a coach which is, you know, a vehicle, you know, so, so that that was a kind of a side job that people did, you know, chaperoning of students around campus in taking us back to campus. So that's where the word came from, and kind of the technique emerged, but the actual emergence of coaching as we know it today, goes back to obviously, that 19th and 20th century, where psychology as a subject matter, and exploration and research into human behavior started to emerge.Goes back, you know, to European tradition was with neuro psychoanalysis, and in it was fairly recent, from the science perspective, development. And I think it's really, really relevant to us because I, myself and my co-author, Woody Woodward, who is also a faculty at NYU, we see this paradigm of, you know, deep insight into human psyche being radically transformed through the technologies that are emerging in the 21st century. So coaching as we knew it, and we're really still practicing in a majority of cases today, is this kind of a human to human interactions of questions and answers, is going to be mediated. And it's beginning to happen at scale, through these technologies that are now available to us. And that was what we wrote about in the book.

David Turetsky: 8:41

But in terms of the history and talking about where it's been, a lot of the things that I grew up with, in corporate world, and especially as I was in the practitioner world in compensation, was when we talked about coaching, we were talking about executives getting people who could help them through changes in the business world, or changes in their environment or changes that we saw as developmental exercises. And so it was really kind of distinctly positioned at the executive levels or the executive ranks or even the senior individual contributors, who you invested in coaches, specifically for transitions or transactions that are needed or that that assessments that kind of focused on, on a deficit up there.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 9:28

Yes, that's, that's true. And the executive executive coaching is a specific area of coaching, that was really very lucrative for some other coaches who engaged in that, but it was a very small minority. And if you think about and that's again, a part of our coaching revolution message is that it was very limited to the senior ranks in their organization. People who received coaching were, you know, really primed for the next level, or the other side of coaching was obviously deficiency coaching when a senior executive who was a rainmaker bringing in a lot of sales to the company, etc, but at the same time had those behavioral issues and particularly people management. And it was, in many cases, sort of a token gesture on behalf of, let's say, senior HR people to say, oh, we are trying to help this person improve their interpersonal skills. But given your backgrounds, you know, we know that if the incentive system is set up in such a way that doesn't encourage any or doesn't punish any such behavior, bad behavior, the coaching was just the window dressing for improving the actual, you know, management skills and management style of those people. So the effectiveness of executive coaching was always kind of in question. It came too little too late to a very small group of people, you know, and it worked. But it was a luxury item.

David Turetsky: 11:08

Yes. So let's get to the next question, which I think kind of is the lead into what you were talking about, about your book. And by the way, we're gonna have links to your book in the show notes, so people can preorder it. And the second question is, how does that change when we talk about the introduction of new technologies?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 11:28

Yes, I think this is really important. And and there's one word for how it's changing fundamentally, and that is democratisation of coaching. All of a sudden, what was not available to any coach or people who needed coaching is scale, you couldn't scale it. And now with technology, the first step in digitizing coaching or creating platforms through which coaching is being delivered, is that it's able to be spread a much broader in the organization and go deeper into the ranks in the organization. And a lot of it was actually energized and created as a result of the pandemic, you know, and people found themselves sitting in at home at their screens. Similar to, I compare it for example, in the book to telemedicine,

David Turetsky: 12:28

Right.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 12:28

and therapy. All of a sudden, what was not allowed to be done before, we found a way to deliver those kinds of services through the media, and the medium of online. So first, we went to online, which is still kind of phase one, in the introduction of this digital coaching. And because you're still interfacing with a live human being, it's just that you don't have to be in the same place.

David Turetsky: 12:59

Right.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 12:59

But interestingly enough, as we were doing research on the book, I went through some discussions shortly before the pandemic 2018 and other meetings of coaches, where there was a big fight around whether coaching was was whether it was ethical to deliver coaching via Skype, remember this technology? Yeah, no one knows what that is anymore. But because the coaches, obviously the executive coaches, those elite coaches, as we know that, were very much objecting to the fact that, you know, something like interpersonal connection could be delivered through technology. And obviously, all of those conversations were forgotten, the minute the pandemic stuff started, and all these much better platforms that started to emerge. So democratisation is scaling of coaching, is, I think, the first step in what we call the digital coaching revolution.

Dwight Brown: 14:03

So out of curiosity, you know, I, when it comes to online and online in the world of work, there's a lot of argument about the effectiveness of it, and the productivity that goes with it. And it actually kind of touches on what you've just talked about. What, what is the prevailing thought out there about using digitized coaching, if you will?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 14:30

Yeah. You know, Dwight, we didn't even get to the real, you know, interesting topic, that revolution that occurs and that's AI coach, where there's no human involved and we can get there, that will be the next step. But as far as the scale, I think the pandemic really helped us bridge that divide. You know, as far as productivity in the workplace goes, one of the outcomes of working online was the burnout. That was the burnout and isolation. And in fact, online coaching and membership with these licenses of these coaching platforms was one of the solutions that companies were thinking of introducing and brought in. That's what kind of was behind this absolute wave of an expansion of the ecosystem of these platforms like BetterUp, Ezra, Bravely, pretty much even traditional companies like PCL and, and Korn Ferry started to introduce online interfaces with their coaches. So I think the pandemic kind of accelerated that process was a huge accelerator for what we're talking about. So as far as productivity is concerned, you know, I think that that was considered to be a solution to the burnout, to isolation, to loneliness that people experienced, similar to what we see in therapy and telemedicine.

Dwight Brown: 16:05

Okay.

David Turetsky: 16:05

However, the difference is, and I think you've touched on this before is that therapists need to be in the same state because of licensure that the people need to be in, whereas from a coaching perspective, you could be anywhere in the world and be an effective coach, because there is no licensure issue with a executive or non executive coach, right?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 16:26

You're absolutely right. And I think that that's where some of the coaching digital coaching providers, the platforms, they're actually developing what they call wellness, and well being services that are sort of borderline on therapy, but they can really still help with a lot of those issues if they don't cross over into the clinical field.

David Turetsky: 16:51

Right.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 16:51

And, and there is a whole protocol around the efficacy of such coaching, where if there is a chance that the potential coachee, or the client of the coach might be needing clinical help, that's being transferred to a therapist who should be licensed and is certified differently than your regular coach. But what's really interesting to me, and I also reflected in the book, that the telemedicine companies that provide more, you know, clinical help and assistance with psychiatric and other types of issues, they started to branch out and develop their own medical coaching solutions, that will have a different certification process. They're not quite clinical and don't require medical training. They're trained in the coaching skills, but they're kind of that transitional phase, where before you actually get to a psychiatrist, you can get help with your behavioral issues, etc, from a medical coach. So there are all of these emerging, differentiating stages of coaching that we can see, when it comes to digitizing coaching that was not available before.

David Turetsky: 18:20

Like what you hear so far? Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com. Now, back to the show. So now let's take it to the next level, which is having a person talk to a computer or if it's not vocal, because it could be, textual interaction through generative AI. So, Anna, are we going to be talking to robots and are they going to be able to solve our problem?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 18:49

Totally, we are. We are already talking to robots. And you know I was just reviewing as my homework, the movie that came out in 2013, Her. If you haven't seen this movie, you should definitely see it. Not only we are really talking, it's been there, you know, this technology existed for quite some time. You know, examples of that will be a Siri and Alexa they were not able to accelerate those developments until all of a sudden Chat GPT was released into the public at this scale. But we're already seeing I mean, chatbots existed for a while. And now we are saying that the new coming out in our time is how quickly you realize that you're talking to a robot and now it takes how many interactions does it take for people to realize that they're actually talking to a machine and oftentimes, people don't realize that. It really depends on the nature of their issues, etc. But and I can give you multiple examples of how it works.

David Turetsky: 20:02

Well, but before you get to the examples, I think one of the problems that we've had, especially with the examples you gave of the Siris and the Alexas is the second and third prompt, right? The first prompt is typically a what do you want, the second or third prompt tries to get to the more detailed issue that you're having. And they never could get to the right place, especially for those of us who've tried to get some customer support from a organization that put the robot between you and the humans, and you tried your best to use the AI, but it never actually worked. So you've been get very frustrated and type in all caps operator or for real person or something, to be able to then have somebody who can solve your problem. That's going away, right? I mean, is the AI learning more about how to actually respond to people, and the variability between people?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 20:56

Yeah, not only that, I think what you're gonna see, you're seeing already, like Jared AI, is it as the more you talk to the robot, the more it kind of tailors toward who you are, and molds the responses in the style that you represent. And I think it's, it's already clear now interactions in the Chat GPTs more advanced versions of that and Vario. My research right now is what I called emotion AI. AI that is empathetic, AI that is reading the person's emotional state and can respond in a appropriate way. So that's where those technologies are heading toward. So it's not just a purely transactional interactions that we all experienced, like with our banks, but it's getting into the emotional state. And in the example I wanted to give you, that you're probably aware, have heard about, is a nice company replica, that was developed by a woman CEO who lost her friend. And then she decided to recreate that friend through a Chatbot. It basically is an online dating service. Right now, there are some, you know, scrutiny that put was put around it, but it's similar to the movie Her. It's an online dating service where people can create this avatar, girlfriend, boyfriend, whoever they choose, and really custom build up that particular persona in a AI environment. And I think that dangers of this type of, you know, service, let's put it that way, is that it's, it becomes addictive that people withdrawal from the actual interactions, because they don't even develop the skills of interacting with imperfect humans, because they have these perfectly tuned up robots who are very responsive and, you know, turned to them in a way that they're expected from this particular person. So, so it's a very new area of research, of innovation, that what we don't know is how humans are going to relate to the capabilities that AIs are bringing to us in new ones on a daily basis.

Dwight Brown: 23:27

It makes sense, it's sort of this layering on of a different realm, if you will, of interacting, like you said, with the there's a perfection in the AI and we're all looking for perfection in the personal interactions. And I could see that that really spills over to the area of coaching, where part of coaching is giving hard messages that the person doesn't want to hear. And is the AI going to do that? Is gonna be able to process that and, and or are we just looking for somebody who, who serves to be an echo chamber for us, and we lose the we lose the impact of the of the coaching that goes with that?

David Turetsky: 24:11

Right. Well, I was also gonna go to the question of how does that coaching then become effective in being able to read the culture of the company, the culture of the person, the issue and the situation? The legalities of the specific issue that the person is dealing with? I mean, the coach could be I mean, it could read all of the, like, for example, New York State Code of interstate commerce, and also all the labor relations code and everything to understand if a manager creates this complex issue that they need help with. Instead of coming to HR, they can use their coaching app to figure something out, but but still, there are so many things that they'd have to take into consideration. It's almost mind boggling that HR can do it. But but then could can kind of robot do it?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 25:06

Yeah.

David Turetsky: 25:06

And I guess the answer is?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 25:08

Yeah, that's that's a big question. Right now what we know, and what's used at scale is the platforms, right? So where employees in organizations, you know, who have licenses with, BetterUp let's say, they're in multiple countries, they match, they have a matching technology similar to what we do in recruitment, or, you know, the dating services, right, we've kind of figured it out there at scale as well. So they have matching technologies, where they're trying to connect to the right human, and they're still employing a lot of humans. So that's what's been done at scale. And it's been done, you know, different levels in their organization, all the way to the entry point, onboarding services, just speaking in practical terms. As well as to you know, David, your very good reference to managers, you know, like, if I want to have a difficult performance management conversation, I can just jump on a call with a coach. And because my company, that's one of the benefits that the company provides, you know, that I could just go in and just in time, when needed, have that interaction with a real former HR person who is ICF certified, etc. That's what's happening. Now, that's a reality. And AI is coming in. And what we're seeing, and in fact, we are experimenting also at NYU, we, this year, we gave all of our students an AI coach for very specific, totally chatbot no, no human being there. But it's very specific prescribed goal setting. We want all of our incoming students to set their goals and they they have this online chat with the coach who sets the milestones, who holds them accountable, ask them the right questions, they have videos, if they want to refer to. So that's purely automated thing that a lot of times, that's what professors used to do, and what was the professor's capacity of sitting there with an open door policy?

David Turetsky: 27:22

Right.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 27:23

This year, this time, it's asynchronous at any point, midnight, you know, students can find this type of coach available to them. So I think what we're seeing is, you know, those kinds of routine tasks, and that's where, where technology is already available. They're easy, and they're, in fact, much better in a lot of cases than with humans, because humans get tired. There's limits to how many office hours I can hold, these AI guys are always there, they're customized to I'll give you an example. Because I don't think it's just you, they track your goals, they remind you, they're flexible, in executive coaching. But for example, I, in addition to all my hobbies, I picked up gardening, in, in the pandemic, etcetera. However, what you refer to, I think, this is and I got an app that is an AI enabled app that tells me a all about the plants, why they're dying, and half of my plants are what's called working at the top of your license, in medical dead, because I'm a novice in this field. But what was interesting to me can help me up until a certain point, and then it says, here's a link you can connect to as a coach. You can field, with the edge cases, that situations that require, you connect to a gardening coach, somebody, if I can't solve my problems through this kind of routine diagnosis, I can connect know, complex decision making. You know, non kind of to an experienced gardener who can walk me through, and I think that's what we're going to see. We're gonna see in every traditional situations where there needs to be, you know, a performance reviews, salary considerations, so I'm going to have a conversation with my manager, how do I prepare for again, complex set of factors to be considered, you know, that's it? There, there won't be a set of standard routine tasks. And then there will be a link that will say, you know, if your where you involve the human. issues are not resolved, please connect to the live coach.

David Turetsky: 29:45

And one of the things though, that hopefully the AI will get to is the ability that in the moment, be able to provide coaching. So when let's say you're my boss, and you and I are having a conversation and you're giving me a performance message, that the AI is listening to you and I both, and to your point before, have emotional intelligence to understand, the coach gives you real time feedback that says, seems like David is veering off course you may want to bring him back. And here's a couple of statements you might be able to use in order to understand how to bring him back. First of all mention all the great things he did last year and here are three examples, right? Or so, let's talk about performance management and don't forget, we have to set goals for next year. So here are examples of ways in which the ways in which we can improve together by using examples of good performance management technique and being able to set goals in the moment at that point in time. Now, a human can't do that, unless you have another person on the call. But if it's just you, and I Anna, and you're giving me feedback, that can happen. And typically that does happen today, in the world of customer support, right? Customer support representatives have that kind of bug in their ear as it were, where they can use either the computer or someone else to be able to provide them that kind of insight. So is that where the AI is actually headed, so it's the in the moment and to your point before with emotional intelligence?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 31:13

Absolutely. And on top of that, David don't forget that the coach, when the coach is brought into the situation, they can now have a complete readout of data of what actually happened before. So you're not coming in cold and trying to figure out in the moment, what the person is telling you, you're gonna have, you know, a whole history of that particular person that will be delivered to you before you go into that conversation. So what we're seeing as technologists is that technology will be brought in as a medium, but a different skill set from for coaches is going to be required. So you know, those intuitions that are absolutely not going away and very needed, however, they will need to be based and integrated with the data that will be delivered to them through AI.

David Turetsky: 32:11

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck, we have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. So let's transition to the third question because I think this is kind of it brings it home for the people listening. How do we prepare for digital coaching? What what are we going to do? How do we get our arms wrapped around it? Our heads wrapped around it? How do we prepare?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 32:53

I think we just have to do it, like just like Nike, right? Just do it.

Dwight Brown: 32:58

Rip the band aid off!

David Turetsky: 33:00

Jump in with both feet. Yeah.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 33:01

Exactly. It's it's so. First of all, most of

Dwight Brown: 33:01

Yeah, exactly. the systems we use at work are going to have embedded AI tools. So like Microsoft is working on it, it's already built into Google, and search engines, you know, our phones are going to be buzzing with these, these tools. So just be on the lookout and

Dr. Anna Tavis: 33:39

They're saying no way. You know, I'm so see, obviously, we're not even touching on issues of privacy, etc. Because there's a big conversation going on. But the genie's out of the bottle, it's there. I think what we need to effective as I, you know, I worked so hard to get to this do is really become adept at using those tools for our level, etcetera, etcetera. No, overnight, you know, you're going to be replaced to a certain extent. So how you understand and how you as a coach, for example, where you purposes. Because a professional with a bot will always win over need to play and what point you need to bring these tools to do the work for you. Become definitely data literate, even a professional without a bot, you know, those who are though you know AI is actually taking us to the next level, it's going to be very accessible, but then still resistors. You know, these are the conversations we're having, connecting to the client is going to be the priority at the human level, because all the prep work is going to be done for example, with professional coaches. Because there's a lot and then as far as us operating in this environment, as I mentioned with my gardening, you know it's going to be available to all, everywhere. So we can be upskilled and re-skilled so much of resistance, interestingly enough, and not surprisingly, faster than before. Because we will have a coach, what I call a coach, but it will be that tutor or you know, co-pilot or that comes from within the profession more so than from whatever assistant, whatever the word is being used now built in anywhere everywhere, every every skill, you're assembling your people who actually need coaching services, right? Ikea furniture, there will be a coach for you to do it the right way.

David Turetsky: 35:34

Unfortunately it speaks Swedish though, so we won't understand it.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 35:38

No, everything, you'll have your translation right away, right? That's another thing: translation, it's incredible what's possible now. And I think the biggest unknown, David and why I think in this next phase, is for us to really understand how the humans are going to react, respond, and adapt, because that's the biggest unknown, not the technology's gonna march on, it's going to try to imitate the humans in the closest possible way. But we don't know how it's going to affect us individually. We still have to be really looking at how it will help communities, organization and in general society, lots of unknowns, lots of questions, and that's why, you know, there are concerns that are being raised. But as I said, it's it's happening, and we are going to be well coached society, we just have to make sure that it's taking us in the right direction.

David Turetsky: 36:45

I think one of the things you can count on, if you haven't been using your phone lately, and text messaging people, and you see the the things that the the phone, or the text app suggests as the next word. It's already a part of our lives, whether you use Grammarly. And we've actually another and other technologies, we've also seen ADP and workday and some other HRIS and payroll systems that have built AI into their next generation tools, where people can ask more complex questions, whether it's a manager and performance management that the example we were talking about before, or whether it's someone who's looking at their benefits and the balances they have left. So those things are creeping into our environment, whether we like it or not, it's it's actually happening, we're actually living it. And, you know, buy a new car that doesn't have some kind of AI, not necessarily for driving, but for operating the vehicle outside of the driving. It's there already!

Dr. Anna Tavis: 37:49

And there's a coach there, for example, you know, I've been looking at this company, affective computing out of MIT, a lot of work in the driver psychology, like, for example, commuter sentiment, road rage, all of those kinds of things, that AI can actually, I mean, you drive a car now, and they tell you, you've been driving too long without a stop, take a break. And, you know, a coffee cup comes in on the on the dashboard to tell you, obviously, all of these nudges that are built in, but I mean, we're gonna see that, again, we're gonna see it everywhere,

David Turetsky: 38:28

Even in the simplest way of it saying you only have 100 miles distance till empty. That's a coach, right? Or the EVs, the electronic vehicles that tell you, you know, put your foot less on the gas and a little more on the brake so we can regenerate some battery. That's coaching as well.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 38:45

Yeah!

David Turetsky: 38:46

It's there. It's part of our lives and accept it or move out of the way.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 38:51

Exactly, exactly. And again, I think, which is why I think more research in human behavior, and obviously, onboarding all of our colleagues in HR into what it would mean, and paying attention and having discussions like this one, I think is really, really important.

David Turetsky: 39:18

Well Anna, I think we've just scratched the surface. And I think we'd have to have you back to talk a little bit more about this maybe closer to when your book gets released. So we can also get people to order it when it's when it's actually live. But thank you very much. This has been amazing, a great conversation. And please come back again, so we can go a level deeper?

Dr. Anna Tavis: 39:39

Well, I'll be happy to. I'll be happy to. It's a very exciting topic and a scary one at the same time. Thank you so much, David and Dwight.

Dwight Brown: 39:47

Thank you for being with us. We appreciate everything. It's been fascinating.

Dr. Anna Tavis: 39:50

Thank you.

David Turetsky: 39:51

And thank you, Dwight. Thank you, Anna. And thank you all for listening, take care and stay safe. That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the episode, please subscribe. And if you know anyone that might like to hear it, please send it their way. Thank you for joining us this week and stay tuned for our next episode. Stay safe.